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Post by Avenger on Nov 30, 2011 14:29:07 GMT -5
What a great rant to bad it's all rhetoric and no substance or fact. The US auto industry is in trouble because instead of operating efficiently they folded to union demands confident the foreign manufactures could never match the quality. Luckily for us they were wrong had they been right we would all be driving the American made junk of the 70s I think that's what I said: Screw product development and quality. I LOVE the CFO guy. They only started working on quality when they were already on the balls of their @$$. Prior to that it was beat the suppliers up for every nickel. When their quarterly statements came out showing a 1% increase in profits they knew GM or whoever would be on the phone within hours demanding a 1% price cut. So home Depot knocked out all the local competition and now sells junk for top dollar? What Depot are you talking about if that were true the local competition would be coming back or other large competitors would be rising. Places like Home Depot keep prices down and selection up and make it possible for lots of home owners to do things themselves. Maybe things are much better in the magical land of Florida, but around here Home Depot is pure $#it. They use the Sears model on their suppliers. We'll buy X million of these but you've got to make it for 30% less. Factual example? One of my technician's brothers was a carpenter and went to a Pergo installation class and Pergo told him that the Home Depot version of Pergo was a cheaper product. They made it for them because of the numbers the Depot promised them. The upshot was my hearing from more than one person, don't buy a Pergo floor, it's crap. No, it isn't crap unless you buy the cheap version at Home Dumpo. Americans keep stepping on their d!¢k because they never look past the price Result: Home Dumpo gives you more selection and lower prices.... on crap. Oh yeah, let's talk about selection... try to buy the same product twice in a Home Depot. God forbid you run out of something because when you go back a week after you bought it, they don't have that one anymore. And there's nothing available in Home depot that you can't get anywhere else. You're right, the competition is limited. Not because Home Depot is so good but because the same people bitching about the quality are still buying there because they can't get past the price. Never mind that the job comes out lousy, "I saved $20! Woo Hoo!" they say, as they trip over the Pergo Light tiles popping off the floor. If your kid is sitting on his or her ass and part of the occupy Wall street crowd you can go ahead and blame that on illegal's if you like but if you really want to know who's at fault look in the mirror. It's your job to teach them how to prosper not societies. It sounds to me like what you're saying is I have to teach him to whore his grandmother for a dollar because that's what seems to work best in America. I never said it was society's job. What I said was that people hiring the neigborhood kid has gone away mostly because of price. OTOH, maybe it's laziness on the part of the kid because their parents are too shortsighted to make them do a little work, more likely it's a homeowner afraid of getting sued when a moron runs over his foot. Of course, the illegals sue the homeowner when they get hurt too. But hey that what insurance is for. To be followed by: Those theiving insurance companies! Look at what this costs! I HATE mowing lawns, but I do own lawn because I don't want to support a sub-culture casing my neighborhood. When he's old enough, my kid will mow it so he can learn about work. Most people don't give a crap until their house gets robbed. And they'll still hire them again afterward because it's so cheap to get the grass cut by Local MS13. Go talk to the farmers and see how much success they've had getting American workers to pick. Farmers can't get Americans to do the work because A: they can't afford to pay them spit because cheap Americans won't pay a penny more for that grapefruit and/or B: That would cut into the profits. It's all about; How do I get the most for the least no matter what the real cost? Consequences shmoncequences, as long as I'm rich. BTW the overwhelming majority of illegal don't work off the books. Stop and think about that for a moment. If you hire someone off the books you have to pay cash and you can't write off the expense plus your taking a big chance it simply doesn't make sense. Illegal's work on the books with manufactured SS#s. Which means they pay into SS and medicare along with the withholding. They don't get the benefits or return at the end of the year so in reality they pay a much higher rate than legal workers. You would think the IRS would kick back the fake SS# but they never do because it's a huge money maker for the Gov. That's the dirty little secret that the politicians never talk about. Maybe it's different picking oranges, but around here all they work for is landscrapers and contractors. They're all working off the books. Their employers are running mostly cash businesses and aren't declaring the income anyway and they save a fortune on gov't paperwork, insurance and all the other costs of legitimate employment. Are you telling me that all the ones standing around the Home Dumpo are filling out W-4s when they climb on the back of the truck? Puuuhhhlease. I'm betting your SK set doesn't go near as big as my China Man set. You're right, there is a market for cheap but adequate products if you're looking at a one time or occasional use, don't need to depend on it for a living stuff. Unfortunately in most cases America's blindness to everything but cost is making it so that's all that's available even if you do need better and are willing to pay for it. From my own experience... 7.3L injection pumps. Guy comes in that's been using the competition but having problems. We do a pump for him... no problems. But, he says, they do it for $25 less. Sooooo, do you end up having to take theirs off the engine twice? Yes. Isn't it worth $25 (which the customer is paying for anyway) to not have to do that? Yes, he says, but why can't you do it for $25 less. Self answering question, but the guy couldn't see past the $$$$. He eventually went back to the competition. Good luck. Rudolph Diesel said they would never buy the diesel engine in America because Americans never looked at the long term cost of anything, only upfront price. Strange, you don't see too many diesel cars here do you? Oh yeah, that had a lot to do with GM selling an eat-it-and-beat-it POS that destroyed the publics perception of diesels. Who gives a crap, GM made money on it for a year or two. I wonder where we'd be in terms of our foreign oil dependency if Americans had adopted diesels in the '70s? OTOH, who cares about that? There was a dollar to be made today and terrorists will sell us cheap oil later! #u¢k our kids!
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Post by banned on Nov 30, 2011 18:34:21 GMT -5
Maybe things are much better in the magical land of Florida, but around here Home Depot is pure $#it. They use the Sears model on their suppliers. We'll buy X million of these but you've got to make it for 30% less. Factual example? One of my technician's brothers was a carpenter and went to a Pergo installation class and Pergo told him that the Home Depot version of Pergo was a cheaper product. They made it for them because of the numbers the Depot promised them. The upshot was my hearing from more than one person, don't buy a Pergo floor, it's crap. No, it isn't crap unless you buy the cheap version at Home Dumpo. Americans keep stepping on their d!¢k because they never look past the price Result: Home Dumpo gives you more selection and lower prices.... on crap. Oh yeah, let's talk about selection... try to buy the same product twice in a Home Depot. God forbid you run out of something because when you go back a week after you bought it, they don't have that one anymore. And there's nothing available in Home depot that you can't get anywhere else. You're right, the competition is limited. Not because Home Depot is so good but because the same people bitching about the quality are still buying there because they can't get past the price. Never mind that the job comes out lousy, "I saved $20! Woo Hoo!" they say, as they trip over the Pergo Light tiles popping off the floor. (quote)
I know Home Depot has some things made for them that aren't very good. They also have some stuff made for them that is very good. You were using 2X4s as an example so lets talk about that. Before HD you went to your local lumber yard told them what you need and some guy picked your lumber off the top of pile of mostly green wood that was kept outside. HD comes along buy only Kiln Dried (more expensive) puts it all inside and lets me pick thru the pile. No comparison I'm coming home with much better lumber at HD. Do you think Dewalt and Porter Cable make junk just for HD or is it the same quality wherever you buy it? You make it sound as if anyone who selects something of a lower quality for a cheaper price is stepping on his dick. A few days ago you told me your transom was painted with one part paint that came of when you removed the name. So you re painted with one part paint.Why didn't you get someone to strip and re paint with Awlgrip? Did you step on your dick or make a decision that it wasn't important enough to you to go the highest quality route. How is that any different than a home owner who buys a $20 Chinese drill from HD Knowing he's only going to use it 3 times a year?
It sounds to me like what you're saying is I have to teach him to whore his grandmother for a dollar because that's what seems to work best in America. (quote)
Well not exactly something like this is more what I had in mind. I'd tell my kid first you need a good lawn mower cause your going to be using it a lot. Shop around and find the best price. Then figure out who your potential customers are and offer a free cut. Do a really good job make sure the person is satisfied with it. Then let them know how much it will cost to do it in the future.
You see this way your kid will learn how business works and Granny doesn't have to sell her body over in Hempstead. She's probably to old and saggy to get much business anyway and I'm not sure they makes those funky red hat's in kids sizes.
You know my Mom still lives in the magical land of LI. She pays $40 a pop to get her lawn done and it's not much bigger than a pool table. She would love to hire a neighborhood kid but they never come around. Must be those Dam Illegals again.
Farmers can't get Americans to do the work because A: they can't afford to pay them spit because cheap Americans won't pay a penny more for that grapefruit and/or B: That would cut into the profits. It's all about; How do I get the most for the least no matter what the real cost? Consequences shmoncequences, as long as I'm rich. (quote)
They're cracking down on farmers here they pay the illegals around $12 an hour to pick. So they kicked it up to $16 and couldn't get an American to apply and that's with 12% UN employment. BTW the working off the books thing was not a FL deal. It was based on a study of Bogus ss#s versus estimates of illegals working. So how much do farmers need to pay to get those red blooded all Americans out of bed? And how much are you willing to pay for a head of lettuce? Those dam illegals are ruining everything hell without your insight I'd be thinking they just want to work and whats wrong with that? Oh yeah I forgot some do work off the books don't they so those bastards are just sucking the life out of this whole country. Of course a legal red blooded American making under 25K doesn't pay any income tax in fact with the earned income credit he takes more out tan he puts in. In addition to that he's entitled to whole bunch of gov. cheese that the illegals can't get. You know without your insight I'd almost think that a legal American making under $25K is more of a drain than an illegal. But of course that's just based on mathematics so it can't be right.
Rudolph Diesel said they would never buy the diesel engine in America because Americans never looked at the long term cost of anything, only upfront price. Strange, you don't see too many diesel cars here do you? Oh yeah, that had a lot to do with GM selling an eat-it-and-beat-it POS that destroyed the publics perception of diesels. Who gives a crap, GM made money on it for a year or two. I wonder where we'd be in terms of our foreign oil dependency if Americans had adopted diesels in the '70s? OTOH, who cares about that? There was a dollar to be made today and terrorists will sell us cheap oil later! #u¢k our kids! [/quote]
Now where in the hell did I get the stupid idea that there are quite a few diesels in this country?? In fact I thought that there are even people that make a living working on them. Oh well maybe only illegals have them??
Brian
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Post by Avenger on Nov 30, 2011 19:31:58 GMT -5
I know Home Depot has some things made for them that aren't very good. They also have some stuff made for them that is very good. You were using 2X4s as an example so lets talk about that. Before HD you went to your local lumber yard told them what you need and some guy picked your lumber off the top of pile of mostly green wood that was kept outside. HD comes along buy only Kiln Dried (more expensive) puts it all inside and lets me pick thru the pile. No comparison I'm coming home with much better lumber at HD. Do you think Dewalt and Porter Cable make junk just for HD or is it the same quality wherever you buy it? You make it sound as if anyone who selects something of a lower quality for a cheaper price is stepping on his dick. A few days ago you told me your transom was painted with one part paint that came of when you removed the name. So you re painted with one part paint.Why didn't you get someone to strip and re paint with Awlgrip? Did you step on your dick or make a decision that it wasn't important enough to you to go the highest quality route. How is that any different than a home owner who buys a $20 Chinese drill from HD Knowing he's only going to use it 3 times a year? I can only speak from my own experience, but I never had a problem with lumber at a local yard. I could select what I wanted, and often the yard guy would pick through them himself saying "you don't want that one." Plus, if I didn't nail it to something within 24 hours it didn't turn in a f_ing hockey stick. Used to be wood was seasoned before they cut it. Now it's kiln dried afterwards because we can't make a fast buck today on wood that's sitting around. I chose the 1 part paint because the whole boat will need paint and it makes no sense to do a super job on the transom only to have to grind it off when I'm ready to do the whole boat. I never said that using a cheaper product that meets a need is a crime, only choosing the cheaper product above all other considerations. Why did you buy a Hatteras? I'm sure somebody in Taiwan makes a cheaper MY that may float. Well not exactly something like this is more what I had in mind. I'd tell my kid first you need a good lawn mower cause your going to be using it a lot. Shop around and find the best price. Then figure out who your potential customers are and offer a free cut. Do a really good job make sure the person is satisfied with it. Then let them know how much it will cost to do it in the future. You see this way your kid will learn how business works and Granny doesn't have to sell her body over in Hempstead. She's probably to old and saggy to get much business anyway and I'm not sure they makes those funky red hat's in kids sizes. You can whore anything in Hempstead. But again, first consideration... you'll need a good lawnmower, not; You'll need the cheapest lawnmower you can find. So when are you sending me the free tugboat so I can see how good a job you do? You know my Mom still lives in the magical land of LI. She pays $40 a pop to get her lawn done and it's not much bigger than a pool table. She would love to hire a neighborhood kid but they never come around. Must be those Dam Illegals again. They're cracking down on farmers here they pay the illegals around $12 an hour to pick. So they kicked it up to $16 and couldn't get an American to apply and that's with 12% UN employment. BTW the working off the books thing was not a FL deal. It was based on a study of Bogus ss#s versus estimates of illegals working. So how much do farmers need to pay to get those red blooded all Americans out of bed? And how much are you willing to pay for a head of lettuce? Those dam illegals are ruining everything hell without your insight I'd be thinking they just want to work and whats wrong with that? Oh yeah I forgot some do work off the books don't they so those bastards are just sucking the life out of this whole country. Of course a legal red blooded American making under 25K doesn't pay any income tax in fact with the earned income credit he takes more out tan he puts in. In addition to that he's entitled to whole bunch of gov. cheese that the illegals can't get. You know without your insight I'd almost think that a legal American making under $25K is more of a drain than an illegal. But of course that's just based on mathematics so it can't be right. To be fair, LI is a microcosm of snobs and elitists. OTOH, if she reached out to some of the neighbor kids she might get a response. If their parents are raising them right. If not they'll be camping out in a park in NY someday. BTW, my Mom mows her own lawn because she's never satisified with the way the legume harvesters do it. Under $25K gets a check? Maybe for a family of four, most people who earn an income are paying taxes. Don't know where you get this from. OTOH, maybe those red-blooded Americans would get off their @$$ if the government wasn't giving them free cheese. And lettuce isn't going to cost $40 a head if they have to pay an extra $4 an hour. Don't worry though. When it gets pricey enough someone will manufacture a lettuce harvester and put all your favorite hard working legume harvesters on a truck back home. Now where in the hell did I get the stupid idea that there are quite a few diesels in this country?? In fact I thought that there are even people that make a living working on them. Oh well maybe only illegals have them?? In real trucks yes, because the efficiencies were too big to ignore. In larger boats because there's no alternative. In cars, not really. If GM hadn't done one of their typical "on the verge of doing something right" deals with the 5.7L we'd probably have at least a 30% diesel private vehicle fleet and wouldn't have to be burning our food in our cars to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. And I'd probably be retired by now. BTW, there's tons more issues with domestic oil production, it's not just the fact that Arab oil is cheap. It goes back to my earlier argument that we've governmented ourselves out of domestic production. My point was about getting real value for what one spends not just seeking the cheapest. Unfortunately most people completely ignore all the other factors because of flat-out greed.
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Post by Kiwipushrod on Nov 30, 2011 20:27:42 GMT -5
Brian, You're full of Crap!
I've been trying to get My hands on some of that Gov't cheese for 10 years now and can't find it anywhere. It's actually pretty good.
I LOVE THE GOVERMENT CHEESE!!
The REAL reason the detroit automakers could not sell cars was quite simple. . . . . . . They could not make a GOOD Car! They could not downsize fast enough to more fuel efficient smaller cars. The Japs already had them in Japan.
By the time American consumers got a taste of foriegn price and reliability it was TO LATE!
To Me this all tranlates into Crappy, Fat Cat, Worthless MANAGEMENT. And To blame the UAW for the problem is simply Propaganda. Also, it's Another TOOL perpetrated by the man to keep the brother down!!
Was organized Labor a problem? Probably, But it aint what brought them down, just as You say that the cost of china labor is not all of chinas advantage in this trade war.
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Post by banned on Nov 30, 2011 20:43:50 GMT -5
If what your saying is true then why does HD have a much larger selection of Quality power tools than it does cheapos? Why are the good restaurants busy? Why do I see so many quality cars on the road why aren't they all yugos? Why were there so many Hatts built? Why were so many DDS built why not Hinos they're much cheaper? Why is Caterpillar doing so well cheap prices? How does Snap ON and Mac stay in business. Why are granite counter tops so popular Formica is much cheaper? Why do so many grossly over priced fashion fads like Tommy Hilfiger take off and sell like crazy? I could go on and on there just isn't very much to support what your saying.
47% of the people in this country pay 0 federal tax. Of them 61% get back more than they put in. I was being cautious when I said under 25K the # is actually higher IRS.gov.
I won't give you a Tug Boat but I will pay your plane fair and car rental if you can look me in the eye and tell me there isn't anything to justify the higher cost than my competitors. BTW I've been offering that up for 22 years and haven't written a check yet.
Don't get me wrong illegals should not be here. It's insane that we don't know who's actually living in this country. But the argument that illegals are somehow draining us can only be supported by emotion and rhetoric. Facts and mathematics prove it wrong. The system should be changed but when it is be prepared for higher taxes and higher costs for the things you buy and probably a drop in quality. If you think illegal labor is all about price your delusional. It's much more about a work ethic and a willingness to work. I don't know how many UN skilled or Low skilled people you,ve hired. A work ethic is either there or it's not you can't buy it. If it's not there you could pay the picker $75 per hour he'll work a few weeks feel rich and leave.
I do find it hard to condemn people that are doing exactly what I would do in the same circumstances. So if you were UN lucky enough to be born on the other side of the fence. Knowing legally will take years what would you do? Jump the fence and feed your family or send poor old granny to Tijuana? I'd jump the fence.
Brian
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Post by Avenger on Nov 30, 2011 20:47:38 GMT -5
Brian, You're full of Crap! I've been trying to get My hands on some of that Gov't cheese for 10 years now and can't find it anywhere. It's actually pretty good. I LOVE THE GOVERMENT CHEESE!! The REAL reason the detroit automakers could not sell cars was quite simple. . . . . . . They could not make a GOOD Car! They could not downsize fast enough to more fuel efficient smaller cars. The Japs already had them in Japan. By the time American consumers got a taste of foriegn price and reliability it was TO LATE! This is crap too. Read Lee Iaccoca's book. He said that everybody criticized the US automakers for making these big gas guzzling dinosaurs while the Japanese made small, efficient cars. But the US makers had small, efficient cars in their product line. They kept making the big dinosaurs because THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WERE BUYING! Leftist ideology says that GM tells people what to drive. (I'm using this as an example because I personally heard it from a clueless lefty) Last time I walked into a dealership nobody assigned me a vehicle. US manufacturing has left for China for the same reason that Honda and Toyota captured the US market. Perception! There's tons of clueless people that never had an original thought in their lives who think that all the fuel efficient cars come from Japan and all the cheap manufacturing comes from China and all the grunge bands come from Seattle.
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Post by banned on Nov 30, 2011 20:51:59 GMT -5
Brian, You're full of Crap!
I try to never argue with emotion
now GET IN THE TRUCK BTW it's Toyota
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Post by Avenger on Nov 30, 2011 20:54:46 GMT -5
So why did Kiwi's wife buy the Chinese bottle liners even with the history of sick babies and dead dogs.... THEY WERE CHEAPER!
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Post by Kiwipushrod on Nov 30, 2011 21:42:28 GMT -5
Your'e full of crap as far as Easy Govt CHEESE!! There is no such thing.
I read Iacoccas book. The cars He wrote about were the full US automaker fuel efficient line up. Chevy Citation, Ford Escort and the wonderful line of Chrysler K kars. The Escort eventually evolved but the rest were TOTAL Losers.
I remember the working on the cars and thinking that We were doomed.
Kiwi
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Post by banned on Nov 30, 2011 21:47:57 GMT -5
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